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post-tourney Forge World balance discussion

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Re: 2000 Point ITC event, August 19th at 11:30 AM @ Game Wiz

Postby TwitchyReaper » Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:07 am

Morendie wrote:
TwitchyReaper wrote:So I'm trying to understand how the 2 suits killed a landraider and 10 Custodes in 1 go? Got out of the landraider and let him shoot your Custodes he would have to kill the landraider first. Which even if he rolled really well would barely be able to kill the landraider between both suits. So unless your opponent was doing some rather shady things, something doesn't add up. 3D6 auto hits at S6, -2 AP 3 damage, and 3 shots at S10, -3, 1 damage isn't really that reliable to kill 10 Custodes a dreadnought, and a landraider. I'm just not seeing it.


One would think right? But he did, with 2 of them. You can imagine fw leaving a bad taste in my mouth after that happening



I don't think you are understanding what I'm saying. 2 Suits cannot physically destroy 2 Custodes squads, 1 Landraider, 1 Dreadnought, and a 10 man tactical squad in 1 turn. Either 1) he cheated or 2) one or both of you did not understand the rules completely thus allowing it to happen.

So unless you can give me a solid play by play of how this went down, I have little help that I can offer.
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Re: 2000 Point ITC event, August 19th at 11:30 AM @ Game Wiz

Postby DylanGould » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:47 pm

Unorthodoxy wrote:ergo the need to keep Forgeworld out of the tournaments. It creates yet another barrier for players to attend.

Not really, the barrier is already there with the volume/cost of army books. Forge World simply adds to an existing one, just like every other codex release.
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Re: 2000 Point ITC event, August 19th at 11:30 AM @ Game Wiz

Postby DylanGould » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:53 pm

TwitchyReaper wrote:In a tournament setting you can ask your opponent for the rules to the unit before the game.

Near as I can tell, the issue came up because the player was allowed to use FW stuff *without* having the rules with him. This was compounded by your statistical breakdown where you showed the Y'varrah battlesuits should not have been able to get the results they did.
TwitchyReaper wrote:Also in a tournament setting it is your responsibility to know the full rules of the game you are playing.

Pretty impossible to know everything for all but a savant few...hence the requirement to bring your rules. It is reasonable to be expected to know your own, and reasonable to have a copy for your opponent. However, I am admittedly biased by my belief that one should not be required to buy every single supplement created simply to play in tournaments. Your mileage might vary.

Related, it is also why I like a requirement to provide a copy of your army list to your opponent.
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Re: 2000 Point ITC event, August 19th at 11:30 AM @ Game Wiz

Postby TwitchyReaper » Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:37 pm

DylanGould wrote:
TwitchyReaper wrote:In a tournament setting you can ask your opponent for the rules to the unit before the game.

Near as I can tell, the issue came up because the player was allowed to use FW stuff *without* having the rules with him. This was compounded by your statistical breakdown where you showed the Y'varrah battlesuits should not have been able to get the results they did.
TwitchyReaper wrote:Also in a tournament setting it is your responsibility to know the full rules of the game you are playing.

Pretty impossible to know everything for all but a savant few...hence the requirement to bring your rules. It is reasonable to be expected to know your own, and reasonable to have a copy for your opponent. However, I am admittedly biased by my belief that one should not be required to buy every single supplement created simply to play in tournaments. Your mileage might vary.

Related, it is also why I like a requirement to provide a copy of your army list to your opponent.


I feel every player should have all written rules for whatever they are running in an event. If a player cannot (or will not) provide said rules that is grounds for an immediate DQ imo. That is the difference of showing up to a shop for a casual game and showing up to a tournament.

I do not think a player should (nor do I claim myself) know every single rule of every unit in the game. But knowing the game in which you are playing and the rules for most armies and such is part of preparing for competitive tournament level play. I agree with you that all army lists and rules should be readily available and provided during a tournament.

As far as supplements. Would it not be equally expected of someone wanting to perform well at a MTG tournament to know all of the rules of the various cards and mechanics that have come out in their current rule set? If someone did not know or obtain those rules prior to going to a MTG tournament would it be not surprising if they did not perform well?
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Re: post-tourney Forge World balance discussion

Postby Morendie » Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:47 pm

Mtg is not the same thing. The rules are on the card. Rules do not come written on the model. They are hurried in a big book.
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Re: post-tourney Forge World balance discussion

Postby TwitchyReaper » Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:01 pm

If all the rules needed to play MTG competitively are just "on the card" as you say. Then why does Wizards of the Coast have a 100+ page document of rules and decisions pertaining to how to play MTG competitively? And a full (and quite comprehensive) testing system just to qualify to judge their events?

Just a thought.
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Re: post-tourney Forge World balance discussion

Postby TwitchyReaper » Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:03 pm

But more to the point. Could you please recount the events of what happened in the 1 turn of mass destruction against your Custodes by the 2 Y'vahrah battle suits? Also, who was piloting this list against you and at what event did it take place?
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Re: 2000 Point ITC event, August 19th at 11:30 AM @ Game Wiz

Postby Unorthodoxy » Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:08 pm

DylanGould wrote:
Unorthodoxy wrote:ergo the need to keep Forgeworld out of the tournaments. It creates yet another barrier for players to attend.

Not really, the barrier is already there with the volume/cost of army books. Forge World simply adds to an existing one, just like every other codex release.


We just agreed on the facts. Not the conclusion.
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Re: post-tourney Forge World balance discussion

Postby Morendie » Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:54 pm

TwitchyReaper wrote:If all the rules needed to play MTG competitively are just "on the card" as you say. Then why does Wizards of the Coast have a 100+ page document of rules and decisions pertaining to how to play MTG competitively? And a full (and quite comprehensive) testing system just to qualify to judge their events?

Just a thought.

That's called a faq, because interactions vary which question how ruling works when in a specific interaction
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Re: post-tourney Forge World balance discussion

Postby Morendie » Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:00 pm

TwitchyReaper wrote:But more to the point. Could you please recount the events of what happened in the 1 turn of mass destruction against your Custodes by the 2 Y'vahrah battle suits? Also, who was piloting this list against you and at what event did it take place?

Turn one I moved up and I couldn't get any view of his models besides his warlord, couldn't shoot it. Big hive line of sight blocker. His turn he jumped both his suits right in front of my land raider, he had other suits but never needed them. The other portion of his army that did fight was fighting hellblasters. With his 2 suits he activated some super nova special rule and lost a wound and Insta wiped 2 custodians the land raider and 9out of 10 sounds to a venerable dread, and killed 7 tactical, morale killed the rest. He did a lot of 3dmg -3 wounds
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