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Re: 2000 Point ITC event, August 19th at 11:30 AM @ Game Wiz

Postby Morendie » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:05 pm

TwitchyReaper wrote:So I will heavily disagree with you that Guille is not as crazy. He is worse now than he was by far. Hence the reason that he is in almost every list right now. Without knowing what units you are referring to in FW it is hard to speculate. What army/faction were they from? In regards to the ease of killing Custodes? There is A LOT in the game right now that would make short work of 5-10 custodes and a LR. None of which need FW to do it.

The argument of not having the information to learn what your opponent is bringing? In a tournament setting you can ask your opponent for the rules to the unit before the game. Also in a tournament setting it is your responsibility to know the full rules of the game you are playing. I would wager that you are not 100% familiar with every unit from every codex currently, thus it is not that much different having to learn a couple more units. The FW indexes are no more expensive than the GW ones, and the models are not that much more expensive than their GW counterparts either. So the "cost" barrier is a moot argument anymore.

There are some issues with a bit of the FW stuff currently, but there are just as many issues with non-FW stuff as well.

Don't misunderstand my position please. I used to be massively pro-FW and argued heavily during 5th, 6th, and 7th to get it accepted in competitive play. I am very much for banning FW from competitive play currently, but that is probably not going to happen. I just want to explore all sides of the argument before I make suggestions to GW.


in one turn, short work with ease, please explain, because forgeworld is the only thing out of 16 games I played them in that made short work of them. of 1 group with all the focus? Sure. 2 units plus a venerable land raider, plus a venerable dreadnaught, and 10 tactical marines, from 1-2 models? I don't know any models that can easily dish out -3ap 3dmg each wounds in a single turn(Couple dozen at that), especially turn one. So please, tell me how quick and easy that is :P, t5 3 wounds, 3+ invuln per model is tough, 10 of them plus a land raider with 2+ save, 5+ invuln, and can ignore wound loss on 6+s (extra save) 16 wounds, t7, plus a dreadnaught with same stats only 10 wounds, and 10 marines. In one turn, short work. :P, 1-2 models is your limit.
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Re: 2000 Point ITC event, August 19th at 11:30 AM @ Game Wiz

Postby TwitchyReaper » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:09 pm

I would like to know what the 1-2 models that did it to begin with so I roughly know how many points were used in doing it. If you can give me that I would be more than happy to give you a roughly similar comparison.
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Re: 2000 Point ITC event, August 19th at 11:30 AM @ Game Wiz

Postby TwitchyReaper » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:13 pm

I should verify. It is a 5 man Custodes unit or 10? Was every model armed with a Storm Shield?
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Re: 2000 Point ITC event, August 19th at 11:30 AM @ Game Wiz

Postby Morendie » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:24 pm

10 total, 2 units of 5, all with storm shields. so 3+ invuln, 2+ normal. Though the ap of the weapon is irrelevant, because of the 3+ invuln, the 3 damage per hit, and having 12+ wounds hitting a unit, you only need 5 to go through.

It was a tau unit, some big battlesuit that had a shotgun attack and a super flamer, and it could take a wound and go nova. 1 primarily did all the work, second one finished it, but was unnecessary. Point wise from what I was told was on par with a stormsurge, but had significantly better damage output then a stormsurge. he had a whole army of other mech suits and drones, but didn't need to use any of it. I don't know any model that can dish out enough 3 damage ranged attacks to wipe out as much as he did, which was more impressive then anything, considering how many wounds and how tough it all was, to kill it all on turn 1. Like I said, 1 unit ok, but not 1375pts worth lol
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Re: 2000 Point ITC event, August 19th at 11:30 AM @ Game Wiz

Postby TwitchyReaper » Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:33 pm

OK, so I am wanting to clarify my understanding of the events. Individual had 2 Y'varrah battlesuits in his list. (800 points). The Yvarrah has an 8" flamer that when Nova charged does 3D6 auto hits. With an 18" move that means turn 1 there should be no way that he is in range of anything with it. (but assuming somehow he was) If he was to fire all of those flamers at the Landraider that would be on average 10 hits, 4 wounds, 2 save, 6 damage to the landraider. If he also fired the "shotgun" weapon as you call it, (the Ionic Discharge Cannon) it would get 3 shots, hitting 1, wounding half the time (so assume 1 wound) assuming you don't make the 5+ save, 1 more damage. So 1 full Y'vahra would on average deal 7 damage to the Landraider. Assuming both Y'vahra fire at the Landraider (again assuming it was in range of both suits) it would still on average only do 14 wounds to the Landraider. (not counting the Landraider's 6+ fnp).

Against the Custodes themselves. Let's assume again that somehow they were in range of all 10 custodes with both suits and all weapons. 3D6 hits on the custodes. Average 10 hits, of those on average 7 wounds, of those 7 wounds, with a 3++, that would average 2 wounds going through. Thus 2 custodes dead. Again firing the Ionic cannon, getting 3 shots, 1 hit, 1 wound, you most likely save (or use a reroll to get it). So both suits firing into 10 custodes would on average kill 5 (rounding up). Still only succeeded in doing about 15 wounds.

Then both suits die to what is left as the custodes/dread/Landraider finish the job.

But going to equate that amount of damage output. Let's go with 2 Landraider Terminus Ultras. Each one has 8 Lascannons, 1 multi-melta, storm bolter, and hunter-killer missile. With the standard option of Bobby G nearby (pretty standard in almost every Ultramarine list). That is 8 Lascannons hitting on 3"s rerolling to hit. So 7 hit. Wounding on 2's with rerolls. So 7 wounds. 3 wounds go through killing 3 custodes. Stormbolter will be lucky to get a wound through. Between the Multi-Melta and HK missile would probably be able to finish one off. Thus killing 3-4 custodes per Landraider Terminus. So between the two of them 6-8 Custodes. The two Terminus could kill the Landraider and Dreadnought in a single round of shooting without much effort.

So the 2 Terminus Ultras vs the Y'vahras the Terminus is T8, 16 wounds, 2+ save. The Y'vahra is T7, 14 wounds, 2+ save. So relatively similar in durability. The Y'Vahra is slightly more mobile than the Terminus.

So all in all, a damn near equal comparison. Non FW.
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Re: 2000 Point ITC event, August 19th at 11:30 AM @ Game Wiz

Postby Morendie » Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:58 am

TwitchyReaper wrote:OK, so I am wanting to clarify my understanding of the events. Individual had 2 Y'varrah battlesuits in his list. (800 points). The Yvarrah has an 8" flamer that when Nova charged does 3D6 auto hits. With an 18" move that means turn 1 there should be no way that he is in range of anything with it. (but assuming somehow he was) If he was to fire all of those flamers at the Landraider that would be on average 10 hits, 4 wounds, 2 save, 6 damage to the landraider. If he also fired the "shotgun" weapon as you call it, (the Ionic Discharge Cannon) it would get 3 shots, hitting 1, wounding half the time (so assume 1 wound) assuming you don't make the 5+ save, 1 more damage. So 1 full Y'vahra would on average deal 7 damage to the Landraider. Assuming both Y'vahra fire at the Landraider (again assuming it was in range of both suits) it would still on average only do 14 wounds to the Landraider. (not counting the Landraider's 6+ fnp).

Against the Custodes themselves. Let's assume again that somehow they were in range of all 10 custodes with both suits and all weapons. 3D6 hits on the custodes. Average 10 hits, of those on average 7 wounds, of those 7 wounds, with a 3++, that would average 2 wounds going through. Thus 2 custodes dead. Again firing the Ionic cannon, getting 3 shots, 1 hit, 1 wound, you most likely save (or use a reroll to get it). So both suits firing into 10 custodes would on average kill 5 (rounding up). Still only succeeded in doing about 15 wounds.

Then both suits die to what is left as the custodes/dread/Landraider finish the job.

But going to equate that amount of damage output. Let's go with 2 Landraider Terminus Ultras. Each one has 8 Lascannons, 1 multi-melta, storm bolter, and hunter-killer missile. With the standard option of Bobby G nearby (pretty standard in almost every Ultramarine list). That is 8 Lascannons hitting on 3"s rerolling to hit. So 7 hit. Wounding on 2's with rerolls. So 7 wounds. 3 wounds go through killing 3 custodes. Stormbolter will be lucky to get a wound through. Between the Multi-Melta and HK missile would probably be able to finish one off. Thus killing 3-4 custodes per Landraider Terminus. So between the two of them 6-8 Custodes. The two Terminus could kill the Landraider and Dreadnought in a single round of shooting without much effort.

So the 2 Terminus Ultras vs the Y'vahras the Terminus is T8, 16 wounds, 2+ save. The Y'vahra is T7, 14 wounds, 2+ save. So relatively similar in durability. The Y'Vahra is slightly more mobile than the Terminus.

So all in all, a damn near equal comparison. Non FW.


Your assuming I was kidding about how much was killed by 2 models, I am not. 10 Custodes, the landraider, 10 tactical marines, to be 100% fair the dreadnaught had 1 wound out of 10 left (Was still dead by the end of the turn), with your math you also assume the 2 battlesuits wouldn't be able to kill everything, not even the custodes, but they did, and they WERE in range, I had the first turn but there was a huge line of sight blocker that kept me from doing anything, and he jumped over all of it and wrecked face. It wasn't theory or math, it happened :P, and from the sounds of it the 2 terminus couldnt kill it all either.
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Re: 2000 Point ITC event, August 19th at 11:30 AM @ Game Wiz

Postby TwitchyReaper » Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:14 am

So I'm trying to understand how the 2 suits killed a landraider and 10 Custodes in 1 go? Got out of the landraider and let him shoot your Custodes he would have to kill the landraider first. Which even if he rolled really well would barely be able to kill the landraider between both suits. So unless your opponent was doing some rather shady things, something doesn't add up. 3D6 auto hits at S6, -2 AP 3 damage, and 3 shots at S10, -3, 1 damage isn't really that reliable to kill 10 Custodes a dreadnought, and a landraider. I'm just not seeing it.
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Re: 2000 Point ITC event, August 19th at 11:30 AM @ Game Wiz

Postby Unorthodoxy » Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:59 am

TwitchyReaper wrote:
The argument of not having the information to learn what your opponent is bringing? In a tournament setting you can ask your opponent for the rules to the unit before the game.


By then your list is already built. Ergo, the issue.
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Re: 2000 Point ITC event, August 19th at 11:30 AM @ Game Wiz

Postby Unorthodoxy » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:00 am

TwitchyReaper wrote:Also in a tournament setting it is your responsibility to know the full rules of the game you are playing.


ergo the need to keep Forgeworld out of the tournaments. It creates yet another barrier for players to attend.
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Re: 2000 Point ITC event, August 19th at 11:30 AM @ Game Wiz

Postby Morendie » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:59 am

TwitchyReaper wrote:So I'm trying to understand how the 2 suits killed a landraider and 10 Custodes in 1 go? Got out of the landraider and let him shoot your Custodes he would have to kill the landraider first. Which even if he rolled really well would barely be able to kill the landraider between both suits. So unless your opponent was doing some rather shady things, something doesn't add up. 3D6 auto hits at S6, -2 AP 3 damage, and 3 shots at S10, -3, 1 damage isn't really that reliable to kill 10 Custodes a dreadnought, and a landraider. I'm just not seeing it.


One would think right? But he did, with 2 of them. You can imagine fw leaving a bad taste in my mouth after that happening
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