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post-tourney Forge World balance discussion

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post-tourney Forge World balance discussion

Postby Unorthodoxy » Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:43 pm

TwitchyReaper wrote:I'm curious what you mean? Please clarify.

First, play testing is notoriously poor for Forge World. Say what you will but the points are always way low or way high and rarely where they ought to be on the 40K side. So i object intensely becasue the only ones "smart players" use are the busted ones. Clearly the overcosted ones are not an issue so why talk about them.

Second, we shouldn't have to learn an entire second layer to what is already a very good learning curve. The burden on newer players this represents makes the game that much more exclusive instead of inclusive. we've lost lots of players along the way who simply were not willing to go through the harsh "boot camp" of the first 20 games or so that one plays. To add to that curve hurts the hobby and I really care about expanding the number of people IN the hobby...not the number exiting.

Third, this hobby is as expensive as it needs to be. The cost to LEGALLY bring these to tournaments (i.e. have the book handy for your opponent) adds another barrier to new players and even intermediate ones. Those books are expensive. Its absurd to tell people to "just" pirate stuff. I wouldnt trust Battlescribe one bit to get it right and i want to see the rules.

Forge World leads to "ah ha, gotcha" moments when D-bags who shall remain nameless "neglect" to mention features of the unit after they "neglect" to bring the book with them. Sorry but that forces me into the position of going "TO, we need to disqualify this army because he doesn't have the rules and further did not disclose things to me that he should have when directly asked about his unit(s)"". I don't wanna win like that, and it now puts me in that position, THEN it puts the TO in that position. You think HE wants to DQ someone? No, even when he should be. I dont want to have to listen to the bitching on forums afterwards. Its a mess. and its the player that's doing this, i get it.

I would add that the ForgeWorld models are great. I hear 30K is great also. I even have a 30K army. I'm all about expanding the hobby and I think Forge Worlds inclusion in tournaments has been a blight to those efforts.

I recall the guy who brought his Tau'Nar. He lost his first two games and rage quit. So on the other side of the spectrum are the false expectations of those who buy models that maybe DO have a serious achilles heel. Tau'Nar is a dominating model however aND THE ROCK/PAPER/SCISSORS of certain unit detracts from the game as well.

I already know what people will say in response. Had this discussion about a million times and it always goes the same way. First they start by telling me how there's "broken stuff in the normal game too" but of course that appears to now be very much less true than it was. In addition the base codexes are the baseline that all players can and should be held responsible for kind of learning as they play and it is fair and reasonable if they are coming to events, that they should come to expect that baseline. In any event, two wrongs dont make a right and just because something isn't right on one side doesn't excuse the other to do "equally wrong" things.

Then the discussion veers to "yeah but what If im new and the only way I learned was using Forgeworld". To that I would just raise the BS flag. No one STARTS using just Forge World stuffunless they only ever played 30K. Gimme a break. But even if we walk down that road patiently and accept this premise of an argument we also have to accept one other thing: this is the vast minority of the cases and does not represent what we should be basing decisions on, that being that "someone somewhere" didn't start with the actual game. Only in politics do we force 97% of the population to change everything they do to accommodate the 3%

And so on it goes.

As i am WELL documented as the one who has ALWAYS said that the General matters more than the models, i am also the last person who would say that it is the winning and losing against these models that bothers me. that sort of falls to the bottom of my PERSONAL list... But the social contract and the expansion of the hobby and things like that weigh big with me.

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Re: 2000 Point ITC event, August 19th at 11:30 AM @ Game Wiz

Postby TwitchyReaper » Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:38 pm

Unorthodoxy wrote:
TwitchyReaper wrote:I'm curious what you mean? Please clarify.

First, play testing is notoriously poor for Forge World. Say what you will but the points are always way low or way high and rarely where they ought to be on the 40K side. So i object intensely becasue the only ones "smart players" use are the busted ones. Clearly the overcosted ones are not an issue so why talk about them.

Second, we shouldn't have to learn an entire second layer to what is already a very good learning curve. The burden on newer players this represents makes the game that much more exclusive instead of inclusive. we've lost lots of players along the way who simply were not willing to go through the harsh "boot camp" of the first 20 games or so that one plays. To add to that curve hurts the hobby and I really care about expanding the number of people IN the hobby...not the number exiting.

Third, this hobby is as expensive as it needs to be. The cost to LEGALLY bring these to tournaments (i.e. have the book handy for your opponent) adds another barrier to new players and even intermediate ones. Those books are expensive. Its absurd to tell people to "just" pirate stuff. I wouldnt trust Battlescribe one bit to get it right and i want to see the rules.

Forge World leads to "ah ha, gotcha" moments when D-bags who shall remain nameless "neglect" to mention features of the unit after they "neglect" to bring the book with them. Sorry but that forces me into the position of going "TO, we need to disqualify this army because he doesn't have the rules and further did not disclose things to me that he should have when directly asked about his unit(s)"". I don't wanna win like that, and it now puts me in that position, THEN it puts the TO in that position. You think HE wants to DQ someone? No, even when he should be. I dont want to have to listen to the bitching on forums afterwards. Its a mess. and its the player that's doing this, i get it.

I would add that the ForgeWorld models are great. I hear 30K is great also. I even have a 30K army. I'm all about expanding the hobby and I think Forge Worlds inclusion in tournaments has been a blight to those efforts.

I recall the guy who brought his Tau'Nar. He lost his first two games and rage quit. So on the other side of the spectrum are the false expectations of those who buy models that maybe DO have a serious achilles heel. Tau'Nar is a dominating model however aND THE ROCK/PAPER/SCISSORS of certain unit detracts from the game as well.

I already know what people will say in response. Had this discussion about a million times and it always goes the same way. First they start by telling me how there's "broken stuff in the normal game too" but of course that appears to now be very much less true than it was. In addition the base codexes are the baseline that all players can and should be held responsible for kind of learning as they play and it is fair and reasonable if they are coming to events, that they should come to expect that baseline. In any event, two wrongs dont make a right and just because something isn't right on one side doesn't excuse the other to do "equally wrong" things.

Then the discussion veers to "yeah but what If im new and the only way I learned was using Forgeworld". To that I would just raise the BS flag. No one STARTS using just Forge World stuffunless they only ever played 30K. Gimme a break. But even if we walk down that road patiently and accept this premise of an argument we also have to accept one other thing: this is the vast minority of the cases and does not represent what we should be basing decisions on, that being that "someone somewhere" didn't start with the actual game. Only in politics do we force 97% of the population to change everything they do to accommodate the 3%

And so on it goes.

As i am WELL documented as the one who has ALWAYS said that the General matters more than the models, i am also the last person who would say that it is the winning and losing against these models that bothers me. that sort of falls to the bottom of my PERSONAL list... But the social contract and the expansion of the hobby and things like that weigh big with me.

One mans opinion. Just one mans opinion.


I agree with many points you have there. I used to be a major FW fanboy and pushed very hard with Reece and Franky getting them accepted in the competitive community. But I have hence retracted that opinion in 8th edition as I really do feel there are some glaring issues with FW in competitive play currently. That being said, as ITC is fullbore loving FW right now, might as well get used to it and be ready for it.

The issue with cost of books is not a claim though as each of those books is available for $25 from FW both digital and written.

The models are no more expensive than actual GW product anymore so that isn't really a barrier either.

FW shouldn't be a barrier for ultra-new players as if ultra-new players are going to a tournament their expectations are going to be negligible as even without FW those players are not going to be doing very well with or without learning the FW rules.

I am curious what is the specific instance you are referring to with an individual not having the rules though to their unit? I know you may not want to name names, but as this group is here to help players in the Puget Sound area I feel it more helpful that everyone knows what to look out for (and who to look out for) if there are potential issues.
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Re: 2000 Point ITC event, August 19th at 11:30 AM @ Game Wiz

Postby Morendie » Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:29 pm

The problem is the balancing. I have come across a lot of stuff can dish out a ridicules amount of firepower that you couldn't even find in normal GW stuff. Especially when you compare the points and see just how off those points would be. Forgeworld is one of those things I think should be played WITH forgeworld, its not balanced around the core games workshop 40k stuff. FW is its own beast that can mingle with everyone else. Yes, there is quite a few FW stuff thats fine and not broken.

But come on, if its broken, people WILL use it and HAVE used it. It was ridicules in 7th and its ridicules now. And the people who defend it I noticed are the people who play with the broken models. I've seen some of the fire power some of these models dish out, and you would be hard pressed finding its competition point wise. Or even damage output.

But like I said, if it was more balanced around games workshop's stuff, then ok, that will work out better for everyone. But when are they ever? It gets to the point where you could almost "pay to win". yes being a good general you COULD get around this type of stuff, but it can be quite the challenge depending on what you bring. Its pretty much like everyone using paint brushes, then you have that one guy that rolls in with a industrial sprayer that does most of the work for you.

And I will re-iterate, its not forgeworld persay I mainly have a problem with, because not all of it is broken, its the fact that people PICK the broken stuff, because they want to win. Which DOES make sense in a tournament setting, because generally speaking it will give you a advantage. But this is what bugged me so much about the constant spam of super heavies in 7th edition. Half the players I fought used forgeworld super heavies one way or another. To the point I stopped playing anyone who is going to only bring FW super heavies or super heavies in general. Because I want to have fun, not be steamrolled by 200+ dollar models >.>

Which leads into what Unorthodox is saying, the game has a learning curve, 7th had a STEEP learning curve, and bringing stuff like that hurts the player base. Because it more then likely gives them no chance at success unless they go on FW and spend a bunch of money on the broken stuff. Then you have all the rules, and when they dont bring the rules and don't say much about them, and since they aren't readily available stuff, its not like players can go to a GW store and read its codex.
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Re: 2000 Point ITC event, August 19th at 11:30 AM @ Game Wiz

Postby Unorthodoxy » Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:51 pm

TwitchyReaper wrote:I am curious what is the specific instance you are referring to with an individual not having the rules though to their unit? I know you may not want to name names, but as this group is here to help players in the Puget Sound area I feel it more helpful that everyone knows what to look out for (and who to look out for) if there are potential issues.


Well he doesn't play at Olympic Cards and Comics, and hasn't to my knowledge but lets just say this: I took an inordinate amount of pleasure in tabling him for his troubles.
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Re: 2000 Point ITC event, August 19th at 11:30 AM @ Game Wiz

Postby DylanGould » Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:13 am

...they "neglect" to bring the book with them...

This is a recurring theme, enabled by players. If we let TOs know that we expect them to require (and enforce) players to have the rules (regardless of source) for their models available at game time, and we enforce our expectations by leaving an event that does not require and enforce it, then TOs will rapidly evolve or perish.

It gets back to one of the tenets of effective criticism: the recipient needs to know exactly what is the behavior that leads to success. Not showing up at a tourney is not enough...you have to let the TO know exactly why. Likewise, you need to let the TO of events you attend what it is that you expect that they complied with. Open letters or non-attendance are just not as effective, and if you truly want to effect change in the tournament (and by extension, the casual play) scene, you need to be effective.
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Re: 2000 Point ITC event, August 19th at 11:30 AM @ Game Wiz

Postby TwitchyReaper » Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:10 pm

Morendie wrote:The problem is the balancing. I have come across a lot of stuff can dish out a ridicules amount of firepower that you couldn't even find in normal GW stuff. Especially when you compare the points and see just how off those points would be. Forgeworld is one of those things I think should be played WITH forgeworld, its not balanced around the core games workshop 40k stuff. FW is its own beast that can mingle with everyone else. Yes, there is quite a few FW stuff thats fine and not broken.

But come on, if its broken, people WILL use it and HAVE used it. It was ridicules in 7th and its ridicules now. And the people who defend it I noticed are the people who play with the broken models. I've seen some of the fire power some of these models dish out, and you would be hard pressed finding its competition point wise. Or even damage output.

But like I said, if it was more balanced around games workshop's stuff, then ok, that will work out better for everyone. But when are they ever? It gets to the point where you could almost "pay to win". yes being a good general you COULD get around this type of stuff, but it can be quite the challenge depending on what you bring. Its pretty much like everyone using paint brushes, then you have that one guy that rolls in with a industrial sprayer that does most of the work for you.

And I will re-iterate, its not forgeworld persay I mainly have a problem with, because not all of it is broken, its the fact that people PICK the broken stuff, because they want to win. Which DOES make sense in a tournament setting, because generally speaking it will give you a advantage. But this is what bugged me so much about the constant spam of super heavies in 7th edition. Half the players I fought used forgeworld super heavies one way or another. To the point I stopped playing anyone who is going to only bring FW super heavies or super heavies in general. Because I want to have fun, not be steamrolled by 200+ dollar models >.>

Which leads into what Unorthodox is saying, the game has a learning curve, 7th had a STEEP learning curve, and bringing stuff like that hurts the player base. Because it more then likely gives them no chance at success unless they go on FW and spend a bunch of money on the broken stuff. Then you have all the rules, and when they dont bring the rules and don't say much about them, and since they aren't readily available stuff, its not like players can go to a GW store and read its codex.



Could you give me a few examples of the units you have fought against that are in the category of "broken" or not balanced? As someone who can put response to the right individuals I would love to get some proper feedback if possible. You mentioned units that are far superior in damage output and potential compared to the regular GW stuff. Thank you.
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Re: 2000 Point ITC event, August 19th at 11:30 AM @ Game Wiz

Postby Morendie » Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:21 pm

The problem I have with naming the units is I don't know the names honestly, it's so rare I fight against unique stuff like that I can hardly ever remember the names. Just What they did and could do. I remember the last one I fought was the same pointage as a storm surge and it made the storm surge look weak.
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Re: 2000 Point ITC event, August 19th at 11:30 AM @ Game Wiz

Postby Unorthodoxy » Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:09 pm

Yeah this is part of the problem.

I didn't list it but it belongs on the list. Players are building armies based on what they know. People like me know pretty much all of them. We build accordingly, and even when we don't have a photographic memory, we generally understand the threat when we see it on the board.

But even I, with as many forces as I play, cannot tell you or quote for you what the damn Prophyrion I faced was, and I only know the name because I wrote it down. 30 wounds? Are you kidding? I remember the Dreadclaw being played once and the guy got the rules wrong but i recall it being terribly great at the time and i had not anticipated it. Still won, but it was kind of up hill. That was before such things became commonplace (as did ways to handle it like interceptor).

I once went to the OFCC and got blasted by some form of Mortars for the IG that were terrifying (they fired like four times each or something), but thankfully he told me what they did before we played...and left nothing out...so i could adjust. He was hitting like one guy per when I was done scattering and it kinda took the fun out of it for him too.

And then there was the list that I tabled out of spite because he left out some REAL relevant data about his walkers (Eldar ones that are super smashy and fast and i dont recall the name of them but i know what i did about it). That needed to happen.

I think less assertive personalities will find it difficult to challenge their opponents on things and those personaltiies get blown out by the SHEER VOLUME of what they don't know and cant afford to know. You say the FW books are $25 but someone just spent $105 in books just to play their army, plus three starter sets so they'd have enough to play a full on game, and then some paints, primer, flocking, glue, dice... i mean at some point, you have to question the wisdom of paying $25 for more books when you have FIVE core ones you haven't even looked at yet and lots of models to go. Then there's the codex drops after that...

I am like every other man in that I subscribe to the belief that if you step into the arena, expect the other guy to try and kill you. I get that point of view. This game has a social contract that the Arena does not. Unlike the arena, we get to leave anytime we want. And that is not a reaction i want to encourage. So when a vet like me is STILL getting caught off guard with the crazy crap Forge World has to offer, at some point you just say "is that even fun? wouldnt I rather be surprised by soemthing I at least had the knowledge base to anticipate?". Does the guy who brought it like seeing your confusion, or does he enjoy blowing you out because you just had no idea that such a thing would be allowed and you didn't plan for it?

You cant plan for what you don't know. There's a lot to know. Thats why i always call the first 20 games of Warhammer 40,000 "boot camp". Welcome to the suck. A good attitude is paramount to get through it of course and you hope they are good sports and are learning from you and you treat new players much differently than you do grizzled vets. I think we all kind of sense when someone is out of their depth and we bring our level down a little when we see it so the other person has fun also. Forge World just makes it that much harder to do.

This went on too long. Sorry.
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Re: 2000 Point ITC event, August 19th at 11:30 AM @ Game Wiz

Postby Morendie » Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:06 pm

yeah exactly. I've only played since jan of this year, but I have come to learn the majority of the factions and always see new stuff, then you fight against that one player who happens to bring forgeworld, and of course you have no idea what some of there stuff is in there army, and when you see a single model Thats so powerful that its broken, then you find out its underpriced in points, and dishes out crazy amounts of damaged I would be hard pressed finding similar damage output. Good example are those 2 FW models I faced in the first tournament of this edition I jumped into, Unorthodox might know the name. They have crazy move distance, super tough, dish out tons of dice with 3 damage -3 ap shots that wiped out 2/3 of my custodes (With t5 3W 3+ invuln), a landraider, a dreadnaught and half my tacticals, 1375pts. turn 1. Custodes certainly aren't unkillable but generally speaking they are hard to kill and deal with. And most of that damage was 1 of them. He still had a whole army behind them that never got to fight. This is only my most recent example of forgeworld. 7th edition was pretty crazy, things like mastadons were crazy tough holding 30 dudes inside, I remember killing everything else off the board easy that game with my necrons but did 1 wound to the mastadon the whole game, and after it ran over my stuff he open the doors and here comes 30 dudes pooring out. Funny enough I think the mastadon was the only thing I can remember name wise. Was super cool, salamanders themed.

I have seen some stuff that isn't bad, I've seen some cool custodes stuff in 7th from FW that wasn't bad, fought against death korps, and my second fight against them I won without much trouble. But generally speaking, especially in a tournament environment, people used what they like, what works, and whats powerful and what they can take advantage of. Thats why every space marine player in 7th was bringing Gulliman, because he ate super heavies for breakfast, and was crazy hard to kill. He was FW tier crazy. He still is crazy, but not "as" potent.
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Re: 2000 Point ITC event, August 19th at 11:30 AM @ Game Wiz

Postby TwitchyReaper » Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:48 pm

So I will heavily disagree with you that Guille is not as crazy. He is worse now than he was by far. Hence the reason that he is in almost every list right now. Without knowing what units you are referring to in FW it is hard to speculate. What army/faction were they from? In regards to the ease of killing Custodes? There is A LOT in the game right now that would make short work of 5-10 custodes and a LR. None of which need FW to do it.

The argument of not having the information to learn what your opponent is bringing? In a tournament setting you can ask your opponent for the rules to the unit before the game. Also in a tournament setting it is your responsibility to know the full rules of the game you are playing. I would wager that you are not 100% familiar with every unit from every codex currently, thus it is not that much different having to learn a couple more units. The FW indexes are no more expensive than the GW ones, and the models are not that much more expensive than their GW counterparts either. So the "cost" barrier is a moot argument anymore.

There are some issues with a bit of the FW stuff currently, but there are just as many issues with non-FW stuff as well.

Don't misunderstand my position please. I used to be massively pro-FW and argued heavily during 5th, 6th, and 7th to get it accepted in competitive play. I am very much for banning FW from competitive play currently, but that is probably not going to happen. I just want to explore all sides of the argument before I make suggestions to GW.
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