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8th Edition rambling and thoughts

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8th Edition rambling and thoughts

Postby Kingpin » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:58 pm

Now that we have some time under our belt with 8th I thought I would share my opinion on the state of the game. I have been having a lot of fun with pick up games and random throw downs. I feel that the major changes that 8th introduced have been a positive for the most part. One aspect of 8th I can't get behind is tournament play. Now I am a super competitive player and love tournaments, but with 8th editions super lax ally rules plus the easy of spamming units thanks to the multitude of force or charts tournaments have become an arms race of who can spam the most points efficient units.

I think that GW has really backed them selves into a corner here and to change it for the better would really upset a lot of the player base so I doubt it will ever happen. Here are the problems as I see it and would really love some other feedback on it to see how others feel. Coming for an old school 40k player (13 years or more now) I really want to see allies go away. I miss the days of one codex vs another and GW could balance things more easily if everything was kept within a codex. Allies and the easy at which to use them in 8th means you can just cherry pick the best units from every faction. Then you have other factions like Necrons with no access to any allies and have to rely just on one codex. The super "Imperium" faction needs to go away and I would be happy if all allies went away with it. But that isn't what I think would upset the player base, the other change I would like to see is the removal of all the detachments in the BRB and a return of the single old force org chat. The chart would have to be modified to allow fliers and a lord of war... Or we could just leave lords of war for out of it but that would never happen. the problem with this is people who have like 6 riptides or 5 imperial knights would now have no way to field all of their toys. Limiting people to a single force org chat with 2 HQs, 3 elites, 6 troops, 3 fast, 3 heavy, and 3 fliers would go a long way to reduce the power of those top tournament armies.

With out the detachments we would have to rework the way to get command points. I think it is very easy though. For every troop choice you take you get a command point thus encouraging people to take troops. Also for every other battlefield roll you completely fill (other than HQ) you get one command point. So say you had an HQ, 6 troops, and 3 heavy you would end up with 10 command points. 3 that you get normally plus 6 from the troops choices and 1 more for filling out the heavy support slots.

Anyhow that's my rambling for now. I guess maybe I just miss "the good old days". I just really want to see codex armies again and allies go away.
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Re: 8th Edition rambling and thoughts

Postby Setsunakai » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:32 pm

I agree, 40k is in a really weird place right now. Allies are really dumb, but i don't think GW will get rid of it, due to the money it brings in via cross faction purchases.

I also feel that regiment/chapter tactics/craftworlds aren't helping the situation as well, since it actively encourages you to diversify and take multiple doctrines.

But really 40k 8th edition feels alot like WFB 8th edition where it was about bringing, and buying, alot of models and about who could deliver the best alpha strike.
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Re: 8th Edition rambling and thoughts

Postby Unorthodoxy » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:03 pm

Isn't it funny that the way I have ALWAYS preferred to play is now GETTING play from people in multiple places? I even here people who previously called me pretty nasty names suddenly agreeing with me that allies ARENT the best thing since sliced bread (oh if only I had taken screen shots).

I've been highly consistent across all the editions in my feelings so nothing I say here will be news. Allies were always a mistake to me. I will hit the high points though.

I think some clarity would help when you say allies. The Imperium thing is indeed an issue but really all it requires is that we say that "Imperium" within your Codex is read as, say, "Codex Adeptus Astartes Imperium" for example. That way you can still do the cool stuff within the codex but now Celestine isnt leading your frigging Dark Angels. Just saying. Thats absurd.

I have had to do a lot of thinking about this very issue because, of course, the nature of the Ambassadorial Tournament is to preserve the "Faction Pure" element of 40K. It's good that it's coming up.

My impression of 40K is that it is in a GREAT place. Other than my usual eye rolling reaction to the inclusion of Forge World and the like at tournaments (and no, I havent lost to anything like it so that's not the issue) I've not found any forces that I didn't at least in retrospect determine how I could have defeated them and would in the future. A good example is my first game against Magnus, in which I was brutally beaten by Matt. I returned the favor and tabled him the next time. The initial shock to the system of a new threat can get the better of you and make you spew hyperbole at first, but if you think it through, you can probably prevail as long as you learn when you lose. Same kind of thing when I played his IG for the first time and there were about a hundred "special things" going off. Too much to assimilate all at once on the receiving end but... Our next engagement will find me better prepared and it reinforced a lesson for 8th Edition that I have felt strongly about for a while.

So then if nothing is truly insurmountable (and I think that it is safe to say that) then what are we REALLY complaining about? Well for me its the FEEL of the engagement. the movie in my head is saying "Why the FRACK are there X's and Y's fighting alongside Z's and Q's", you know? It attacks my sense of verisimilitude, and it kind of makes it more like chess and less like I'm running this cool battle.

We are complaining because: balance issues. Spamming has always been a thing. Don't kid yourself. As far back as the end of third Edition, people did it. it even led to Gary Washington and his Assault Cannon "theme" and the funny saying from some that "Assault Cannons is not a theme". it was a running joke for some time. Spamming on this level however has never been seen. I faced Derek Erlenbush's ELEVEN Command suits and thought "who in their right mind sends 11 company commanders into battle?". Well the easy answer is "someone who likes winning" because that's what he did! Here again, there was a waaaaaay to beat it but is it "realistic" in context? Was it fun? Not really. Derek is a great guy and he was very conscientious as an opponent in my opinion (so no one better give him a hard time about it), but his army was just not fun to face, having nothing to do with him.

But tournaments are competitions. You paid to be there. You should try to win, yes? And trying to win means putting your best foot forward and no one seems to disagree on this point. More to the point, they are also excuses to get three guaranteed games in and a chance to win schwag.

I think this comes down on the TO's shoulders. I have always seen it this way. When you can clearly seea problem and you ignore it, you are quite likely not to see as many players stick.

So the things I have said before and would try again are:
1. No Forge World. Its an issue. Stop pretending it isn't and act on the reality that is is.
2. Require the Batallion be a part of the three Detachments, and in 2K games and larger, even a Brigade requirement might not be out of the question. The Brigade creates representative armies. If you do, there will have to be some consideration given to armies like Grey Knights for which a Brigade is nigh impossible, but the concept is sound.
3. Raffle prizes. it makes sense that we want all the players to come, not just died in the wool killers. When you raffle prizes it allows even the died in the wool killers to consider less extreme and more fun armies because the all or nothing thing isn't the issue as much as getting games in with cool fellows like you.
4. Don't make every tournament an ITC tournament. This is a tough one, but ITC points will make a died in the wool killer stay that way because there really is still a "prize" to shoot for. Alternatively, since TO's are free to score as they wish, modify the scoring to more heavily include sportsmanship scores as we all once did and could again. The ITC final results can be manually entered, and the software used for just the pairings. Ultimately the scoring can still include paint and sportsmanship and the 3-2-1 system I often used before could be used again.
5. Embrace custom missions. Part of what makes some armies good is that they "play to the missions" the ITC has, but custom missions have the advantage of making people rethink that.
6. CONSIDER disallowing a particular Detachment if it is causing an extreme imbalance inthe meta. You don't have to throw them all out, but the supreme Command Detachment appears to be the primary culprit in most peoples estimation and so if that is the case... Act on what you see.

The bottom line goal for me is to make the game as accessible as possible to the newest player. THAT should be everyone's primary goal, actually. You can't always do it perfectly but you surely can do more than is being done now!

And with that i will remind you, this Sunday, tournament, no forgeworld, raffled prizes, post is up!
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Re: 8th Edition rambling and thoughts

Postby Morendie » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:29 pm

Why not implement a pure thematic rule?

If you have dark angels, your army can ONLY be dark angels. If you are doing ultramarines, then they HAVE to be ultra marines. And to maybe allow some leeway for some armies that may need to mix some, force battalion detachment with it comprising of 75% of your points

Pretty much with how it was in 7th. lot of armies cant even truly compete because you can just mix and match 200+ data sheets from imperium to make your list.
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Re: 8th Edition rambling and thoughts

Postby Unorthodoxy » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:03 am

Morendie wrote:Why not implement a pure thematic rule?

If you have dark angels, your army can ONLY be dark angels. If you are doing ultramarines, then they HAVE to be ultra marines. And to maybe allow some leeway for some armies that may need to mix some, force battalion detachment with it comprising of 75% of your points

Pretty much with how it was in 7th. lot of armies cant even truly compete because you can just mix and match 200+ data sheets from imperium to make your list.


Oh, you mean exactly like we have every year at the Elvensword Ambassadorial Grand Tournament? Yeah we could do that. =)
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
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Re: 8th Edition rambling and thoughts

Postby Morendie » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:19 am

Unorthodoxy wrote:
Morendie wrote:Why not implement a pure thematic rule?

If you have dark angels, your army can ONLY be dark angels. If you are doing ultramarines, then they HAVE to be ultra marines. And to maybe allow some leeway for some armies that may need to mix some, force battalion detachment with it comprising of 75% of your points

Pretty much with how it was in 7th. lot of armies cant even truly compete because you can just mix and match 200+ data sheets from imperium to make your list.


Oh, you mean exactly like we have every year at the Elvensword Ambassadorial Grand Tournament? Yeah we could do that. =)


Didn't know they did that at the lord of the rings grand tournament name thing you said. Lol
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Re: 8th Edition rambling and thoughts

Postby Unorthodoxy » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:41 am

Morendie wrote:
Unorthodoxy wrote:
Morendie wrote:Why not implement a pure thematic rule?

If you have dark angels, your army can ONLY be dark angels. If you are doing ultramarines, then they HAVE to be ultra marines. And to maybe allow some leeway for some armies that may need to mix some, force battalion detachment with it comprising of 75% of your points

Pretty much with how it was in 7th. lot of armies cant even truly compete because you can just mix and match 200+ data sheets from imperium to make your list.


Oh, you mean exactly like we have every year at the Elvensword Ambassadorial Grand Tournament? Yeah we could do that. =)


Didn't know they did that at the lord of the rings grand tournament name thing you said. Lol


No dingleberry. This: https://foxelvensword.com/
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
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Re: 8th Edition rambling and thoughts

Postby Kingpin » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:46 pm

@Setsu: I didn't really think of it compared to 8th Fantasy but your right it does kind of have that same feel.

@Joseph: You know I am a competitive play and not above running cheese but I think you nailed it with the Feel of the game. You really lose the fun of trying to figure out a theme that might cause these two armies to face each other. Even with two cheesy tournament armies it just looks so much better and has a better feel when they aren't full of random units across 5 different codexes.
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Re: 8th Edition rambling and thoughts

Postby Unorthodoxy » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:43 am

You are competitive and you do bring cheese. Lol.

I rarely bring the high hard heater, while not really expecting others to follow suit (and they have ditifully not followed suit). I think my Militarum Tempestus force (which was ironically quite under powered before this and just HAPPENS to be good now) is as close as I've gotten and then there was the one time I broke down and tried Andrews suggestion of two StormSurges (It was the end of the edition so I said "whatevs" and did it). Overall i demure to do so.

But as i mentioned, the TO can make a difference. while everything might be allowed normally, curbing things and doing themed events all help the enjoyment of everyone. The TO is the one that has the courage (or doesn't as the case may be) to face a little resistance from players in order to bring a bit more civility and as long as everyone has the same rules, it just means that much more variety i nthe units you might get to face. and that equals more fun while STILL ultimately being a dog fight to the end. It doesnt matter what little tweaks you institute, everyone still has the same goal at the end of the day: Kill as many of them before they kill you. that doesn't change.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
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http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
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Re: 8th Edition rambling and thoughts

Postby agentorange » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:11 am

I really like 8th. I also agree that GW has painted themselves into a corner. I don't see them going back, but wish they would. I didn't think I'd want the old(not so old) single force org chart back, but I do. Tournament play is....well it's boring. As was said earlier, "it's a arms race".
It's not heresy if your eyes were closed.
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