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Chase is going to beat me

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Chase is going to beat me

Postby Unorthodoxy » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:56 pm

Chase has prepared, planned... plotted...and now he's ready. He wants it bad. Real bad. So many games and yet...

Show starts at 5:30 at Gabi's. Come root him on!
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
-Napoleon Bonaparte
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Re: Chase is going to beat me

Postby Morendie » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:04 pm

Unorthodoxy wrote:Chase has prepared, planned... plotted...and now he's ready. He wants it bad. Real bad. So many games and yet...

Show starts at 5:30 at Gabi's. Come root him on!

And yet, got steam rolled again. That would be 19-0 Good sir.
- If you are going to lose, then make sure they have a costly victory.
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Re: Chase is going to beat me

Postby Unorthodoxy » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:43 am

Hmm...

If you bring your stuff on Thursday, maybe I can sit down with your codex and see what's what. On the surface you have some really good units (in my opinion).

The superstars to me were the Flamer gauntlet guys which just REALLY can do work. They caused fear in me and affected what I did more than any unit you have. Anything that affects the enemies decision making is gooood. A pair of those units seems very very legit to me. I'd throw them in a vehicle and slam them into enemy face holes at all possible speed. It's just an excellent unit. To make those the most useful they CAN be, you'll have tyo play ultra aggressive with everything and speed will have to be a more paramount concern... But worth it. Those dudes are insane.

The mission favored aggression, and you chose to go reserve heavy. Ultimately I'm not sure the mission really even needs that for the Attackers side except perhaps to circumnavigate the Defiler. In week two mission play I would suggest you saturate the opponent with threats from the word go as the Imperial attacker. DO NOT clump them up against a Defiler because it is so big that it can tie up a fair number of units with its girth (albeit it actually only charged one unit the whole game this time and only killed like three dudes doing it). Remember not to clump anywhere on the approach that the Defiler can nab a bunch of units in its net. That's really what the Defiler does better than anything. It's shooting is somewhat less than stellar and it's barely more effective than your little Warlord was in melee at twice the price (currently, rumor has it that its being made a little cheaper in the Codex given what i just said is true). Ultimately the shooting it stops is the big deal, and the way it forces the enemy to bend around it is equally valuable. You need to find a way to get the enemy saturated and forced to make unenviable choices.

I would definitely recommend building your force as a Brigade and seeing what that looks like. You seem to prefer small elite type units more than anything else and a Brigade rewards that thinking. I will make a go at it when you come over on Thursday if you want. I think you might fall in love with the stat lines more than you should, and I think that happens to a lot of people, actually. Sometimes stat lines and damage output aren't all there is to consider. The requirements of the mission play big and just because you can kill any unit you want wielding unit X doesn't mean your opponent has to allow you the opportunity.

Another fun idea is to play one of my armies, EXACTLY as it is now, so that you can see things from MY perspective. So much of winning as Sun Tzu rightly pointed out, is knowing your enemy. I own a fair number of armies and part of the advantage of that is that I have been able to look through my opponents eyes at their units and that helps me anticipate what they might do or how easy it is to get at them. It's probably also why i fare less well against Chaos Daemon type lists: I don't own that army and I get surprised by them more than I like to admit. I distance myself from the codex on purpose subconsciously I think, to my detriment. The first time I fought Matt's Daemon army he walloped me because I just

I also don't own Tyranids and i sometimes get caught off guard by the things they can do. For example, while the game with Jason ended in a tabling of the Tyranids, I made critical errors against Jason that I probably shouldn't have. I put my Railguns way too close and for no reason that's defensible, because I underestimated their speed and shouldn't have even tempted it. He made more mistakes than i did or he might have fared far better; and now that he's seen what I can do, he will already be better against me the next time, while I will know that being closer is absolutely not the thing to do! I know that seems obvious but the mission does dictate things to a certain extent and there will be times when you have to ignore good sense as well for the potential gain. Playing someone elses army really helps you see when that might be true and to anticipate that they will try...which informs your choices.

Sorry for the wall of text. But those are just some thoughts.

In the immortal words of Leslie Nielsen: Good luck. We're all counting on you.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
-Napoleon Bonaparte
Unorthodoxy
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Posts: 4865
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: Chase is going to beat me

Postby Morendie » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:56 pm

Unorthodoxy wrote:Hmm...

If you bring your stuff on Thursday, maybe I can sit down with your codex and see what's what. On the surface you have some really good units (in my opinion).

The superstars to me were the Flamer gauntlet guys which just REALLY can do work. They caused fear in me and affected what I did more than any unit you have. Anything that affects the enemies decision making is gooood. A pair of those units seems very very legit to me. I'd throw them in a vehicle and slam them into enemy face holes at all possible speed. It's just an excellent unit. To make those the most useful they CAN be, you'll have tyo play ultra aggressive with everything and speed will have to be a more paramount concern... But worth it. Those dudes are insane.

The mission favored aggression, and you chose to go reserve heavy. Ultimately I'm not sure the mission really even needs that for the Attackers side except perhaps to circumnavigate the Defiler. In week two mission play I would suggest you saturate the opponent with threats from the word go as the Imperial attacker. DO NOT clump them up against a Defiler because it is so big that it can tie up a fair number of units with its girth (albeit it actually only charged one unit the whole game this time and only killed like three dudes doing it). Remember not to clump anywhere on the approach that the Defiler can nab a bunch of units in its net. That's really what the Defiler does better than anything. It's shooting is somewhat less than stellar and it's barely more effective than your little Warlord was in melee at twice the price (currently, rumor has it that its being made a little cheaper in the Codex given what i just said is true). Ultimately the shooting it stops is the big deal, and the way it forces the enemy to bend around it is equally valuable. You need to find a way to get the enemy saturated and forced to make unenviable choices.

I would definitely recommend building your force as a Brigade and seeing what that looks like. You seem to prefer small elite type units more than anything else and a Brigade rewards that thinking. I will make a go at it when you come over on Thursday if you want. I think you might fall in love with the stat lines more than you should, and I think that happens to a lot of people, actually. Sometimes stat lines and damage output aren't all there is to consider. The requirements of the mission play big and just because you can kill any unit you want wielding unit X doesn't mean your opponent has to allow you the opportunity.

Another fun idea is to play one of my armies, EXACTLY as it is now, so that you can see things from MY perspective. So much of winning as Sun Tzu rightly pointed out, is knowing your enemy. I own a fair number of armies and part of the advantage of that is that I have been able to look through my opponents eyes at their units and that helps me anticipate what they might do or how easy it is to get at them. It's probably also why i fare less well against Chaos Daemon type lists: I don't own that army and I get surprised by them more than I like to admit. I distance myself from the codex on purpose subconsciously I think, to my detriment. The first time I fought Matt's Daemon army he walloped me because I just

I also don't own Tyranids and i sometimes get caught off guard by the things they can do. For example, while the game with Jason ended in a tabling of the Tyranids, I made critical errors against Jason that I probably shouldn't have. I put my Railguns way too close and for no reason that's defensible, because I underestimated their speed and shouldn't have even tempted it. He made more mistakes than i did or he might have fared far better; and now that he's seen what I can do, he will already be better against me the next time, while I will know that being closer is absolutely not the thing to do! I know that seems obvious but the mission does dictate things to a certain extent and there will be times when you have to ignore good sense as well for the potential gain. Playing someone elses army really helps you see when that might be true and to anticipate that they will try...which informs your choices.

Sorry for the wall of text. But those are just some thoughts.

In the immortal words of Leslie Nielsen: Good luck. We're all counting on you.


Yes putting as much stuff in reserves as I did was a mistake, but reasoning for it was because I had a lot of bulky stuff, and it was hard to utilize positioning in my favor, and I know you love clumped up units. On top of that, as I mentioned during our game, I did NOT expect or like the fact that somehow that defiler could fit in a small space due to using the "wobbly model" rule. Traversing terrain yes, weirdly shaped terrain making actual placement difficult yes, but using the wobbly model rule that wouldn't even have fit in that room if the arms were cut off, was a huge deal. My strategy hinged on the design of the building to allow swift passage right into your deployment zone without the Defiler bothering me, and gladly taking charges from other units. Because of that the bulk of my fighting force was stuck there the entire game in close combat. The only benefit of the situation was the fact that because the defiler was "technically" in the building, I roasted 8 wounds off the thing with my aggressors. Which made it a bit more satisfying.

But moreover some of these vague rules really do bother me, because they can be interpreted and used in several ways, ways that WILL create arguments.

Regardless, the idea was to swoop through the middle ruins, avoiding the defiler, straight into your infantry, then deploying all the reserves from where I deployed them, and swoop in that way. But that whole debacle with the defiler pretty much stomped the entire thing, and lost troves of forces. Reserving my heavy las power was also a mistake, because my first wave of las cannon shots all fell on there faces, I fail on 1s, and got all 1s, lmao, and thats with rerolls. That was a pretty sad fight. Everything else pretty much fell apart. The assassins probably would have lasted another 2 turns picking off troops though. xD never know, maybe they could have won me the game after 10 turns. Lmao


As for brigades, I have a hard time making them, because that requires a lot of little stuff, and it means I can't bring what I like to bring, and have to sacrifice a lot of power for quantity of little stuff. Most of what I have is a bit pricey point wise. Never cared for the design, I want to enjoy what I bring :P. Going to probably put together my other aggressors so I can start rolling with a 6 man group. That shit would be scary.
- If you are going to lose, then make sure they have a costly victory.
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Re: Chase is going to beat me

Postby Unorthodoxy » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:37 pm

It's my opinion thata Brigade would let you bring EVERYTHING you own, just in different quantities and arrangements.

I recommend it because it does exactly that. Having a more "Combined arms" approach serves me well. Being over committed and over specialized can get you in trouble. In Magic: The Gathering, you go in with a deck that has a shenanigan and you execute that shenanigan as soon as possible and thats the game. It isn't like that in 40K. It's much more difficult to go into a game with just one plan and win. In Magic there is no plan B. You win or lose on your Shenanigan. In Warhammer 40K you gotta have plan B and C which is a lot easier to accomplish when you aren't pidgeon holed into doing things just one way.

So I think it would be a positive mental exercise just to try it and see what you come up with. Maybe a little more flexibility being available to you would really help you see what the codex is capable of more fully.

I recall winning TWO tournaments in a row with my Sisters of Battle when the codex dropped, and all I did was (literally) take one of every unit in the codex. I'm not kidding on any level. That's what I did, just to see what the codex components were actually capable of. It was quite helpful in that I didn't have to win with just melee, or just shooting or just quality shooting or just positioning. I could kind of do all of it ENOUGH without over comitting.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
-Napoleon Bonaparte
Unorthodoxy
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Posts: 4865
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: Chase is going to beat me

Postby Morendie » Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:45 pm

Unorthodoxy wrote:It's my opinion thata Brigade would let you bring EVERYTHING you own, just in different quantities and arrangements.

I recommend it because it does exactly that. Having a more "Combined arms" approach serves me well. Being over committed and over specialized can get you in trouble. In Magic: The Gathering, you go in with a deck that has a shenanigan and you execute that shenanigan as soon as possible and thats the game. It isn't like that in 40K. It's much more difficult to go into a game with just one plan and win. In Magic there is no plan B. You win or lose on your Shenanigan. In Warhammer 40K you gotta have plan B and C which is a lot easier to accomplish when you aren't pidgeon holed into doing things just one way.

So I think it would be a positive mental exercise just to try it and see what you come up with. Maybe a little more flexibility being available to you would really help you see what the codex is capable of more fully.

I recall winning TWO tournaments in a row with my Sisters of Battle when the codex dropped, and all I did was (literally) take one of every unit in the codex. I'm not kidding on any level. That's what I did, just to see what the codex components were actually capable of. It was quite helpful in that I didn't have to win with just melee, or just shooting or just quality shooting or just positioning. I could kind of do all of it ENOUGH without over comitting.


Well I will have my entire assortment of ready to use models tomorrow when i come over, minus my nephilim fighters, some speeders and a knight
- If you are going to lose, then make sure they have a costly victory.
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