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1970 German Army list

Re: 1970 German Army list

Postby Dan the German Guy » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:36 am

I may have been excessively critical of your list initially.

You are making several valuable points, and as you point out, in the end it all comes down to playtesting. As you conclude yourself, this list basically is an evolutionary reaction to your gaming environment, whith several other players playing their tanks aggressively. I remember you originally playing panzergrenadiers, and maybe you got tired of getting hammered.
The way I see it, "playing aggressively with tanks" is either an art form or the last argument of tactically inept amateurs, who depend on their units to deliver victory, not on tactical skill (to paraphrase Sun Tzu). But before I get launched into another debate on game ethics, back to your list.

I maintain my main point of concern: it does one thing very well, which is smash tank companies in a head-on fight, and I definitely wouldn't want to wade through your bombardments - but then I'll be defending against this list ten out of ten times, rocket launchers don't get re-rolls to hit, your firepower is only 4+ and I'd be Vets in cover. You might get my guns, which would suck, and my infantry would bleed, but once your recon died, all you could do is stand off and hammer me - or any other Vet infantry force you'd face, for that matter. Against any other opponent, you are susceptible to defeat in detail.

Apart from the 88s, you have no anti-air. So a player with Rudel or strong air support would hammer your artillery batteries mercilessly, especially any US player with Close Air Support. You're counting on dice and terrain for this list to work, so it'll either win spectacularly or lose the same.
Also, I know very few people use snipers - I do. And with only one infantry platoon to your name, Gun, Command and Observer teams would be at the top of my target list. And any platoon hit by sniper fire automatically gets pinned. That means if I score hits - HITS, not KILLS - on any of your gun teams, battery command teams, HQ teams, staff team or anti-tank team, the whole battery gets pinned. And as you pointed out, your batteries are massive, so they ARE vulnerable to snipers or counter-battery fire.
(Question inbetween: does that actually mean snipers can pin tank platoons?)

As for the King Tiger: well, if you intend to use it only for a very limited role in your game, then that certainly reduces the risk you're taking. But it also raises the question if that same role might not be fulfilled by a more cost-efficient unit entirely. Heavy tanks are a shock weapon, but ironically, they need numbers to fulfill that function - only less numbers than their smaller cousins.

On a different note: it seems my online store still has a number of Beute StuGs in stock - I don't know how many. They don't ship overseas, but I could acquire them for you and then mail them to you. It would be expensive, likely, but at least you'd get your tanks. Interested?
Dan the German Guy
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Posts: 70
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Re: 1970 German Army list

Postby Unorthodoxy » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:49 am

Dan the German Guy wrote:I may have been excessively critical of your list initially.

You are making several valuable points, and as you point out, in the end it all comes down to playtesting. As you conclude yourself, this list basically is an evolutionary reaction to your gaming environment, whith several other players playing their tanks aggressively. I remember you originally playing panzergrenadiers, and maybe you got tired of getting hammered.
The way I see it, "playing aggressively with tanks" is either an art form or the last argument of tactically inept amateurs, who depend on their units to deliver victory, not on tactical skill (to paraphrase Sun Tzu). But before I get launched into another debate on game ethics, back to your list.

I maintain my main point of concern: it does one thing very well, which is smash tank companies in a head-on fight, and I definitely wouldn't want to wade through your bombardments - but then I'll be defending against this list ten out of ten times, rocket launchers don't get re-rolls to hit, your firepower is only 4+ and I'd be Vets in cover. You might get my guns, which would suck, and my infantry would bleed, but once your recon died, all you could do is stand off and hammer me - or any other Vet infantry force you'd face, for that matter. Against any other opponent, you are susceptible to defeat in detail.

Apart from the 88s, you have no anti-air. So a player with Rudel or strong air support would hammer your artillery batteries mercilessly, especially any US player with Close Air Support. You're counting on dice and terrain for this list to work, so it'll either win spectacularly or lose the same.
Also, I know very few people use snipers - I do. And with only one infantry platoon to your name, Gun, Command and Observer teams would be at the top of my target list. And any platoon hit by sniper fire automatically gets pinned. That means if I score hits - HITS, not KILLS - on any of your gun teams, battery command teams, HQ teams, staff team or anti-tank team, the whole battery gets pinned. And as you pointed out, your batteries are massive, so they ARE vulnerable to snipers or counter-battery fire.
(Question inbetween: does that actually mean snipers can pin tank platoons?)

As for the King Tiger: well, if you intend to use it only for a very limited role in your game, then that certainly reduces the risk you're taking. But it also raises the question if that same role might not be fulfilled by a more cost-efficient unit entirely. Heavy tanks are a shock weapon, but ironically, they need numbers to fulfill that function - only less numbers than their smaller cousins.

On a different note: it seems my online store still has a number of Beute StuGs in stock - I don't know how many. They don't ship overseas, but I could acquire them for you and then mail them to you. It would be expensive, likely, but at least you'd get your tanks. Interested?


Id need to know for sure how many and at what cost. But maybe.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
-Napoleon Bonaparte
Unorthodoxy
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Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: 1970 German Army list

Postby Dan the German Guy » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:50 am

https://www.tabletopstore.de/7-5cm-or-1 ... h/a-44370/

They have two left in stock. Price is in Euro, but I get a 10% discount.
Dan the German Guy
Corporal
 
Posts: 70
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:36 am

Re: 1970 German Army list

Postby Unorthodoxy » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:41 am

Ah! Well I need 11. So i would have to still find 9 more...

CURRENTLY, they have 4 at the Game Matrix because that's all they COULD get after six weeks and there are no more at Battlefront. So... It would be slow to collect it seems. I wonder how many lists use them in Atlantik Wall?
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
-Napoleon Bonaparte
Unorthodoxy
Major
 
Posts: 4889
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: 1970 German Army list

Postby DylanGould » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:04 am

Unorthodoxy wrote:I wonder how many lists use them in Atlantik Wall?

Quite a few; easyarmy.com has a function in the "Links" section to "Find Companies containing a given Arsenal Item".
DylanGould
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Posts: 455
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Re: 1970 German Army list

Postby Dan the German Guy » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:05 pm

Should I get them for you?
Dan the German Guy
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Posts: 70
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:36 am

Re: 1970 German Army list

Postby Unorthodoxy » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:35 pm

I hate to ask you to do that without knowing what the price and shipping and all that is. I'd like to have them yes. Tjhat would mean scooping up the 4 at the Matrix also, so I'd need to get on that right away. hmm... Mayh ave to talk to the banker (wife). hehehe.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
-Napoleon Bonaparte
Unorthodoxy
Major
 
Posts: 4889
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: 1970 German Army list

Postby Dan the German Guy » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:18 am

The price is 8,55 € each, which translates to maybe ten bucks. I'd have to see what overseas shipping would cost me.

By the way: I am also selling some surplus stuff from my Germans, mainly two 105s and two 150s. The 105s are assembled and painted, the 150s are neither, just the guns.
Interested?
Dan the German Guy
Corporal
 
Posts: 70
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:36 am

Re: 1970 German Army list

Postby Unorthodoxy » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:29 pm

Dan the German Guy wrote:The price is 8,55 € each, which translates to maybe ten bucks. I'd have to see what overseas shipping would cost me.

By the way: I am also selling some surplus stuff from my Germans, mainly two 105s and two 150s. The 105s are assembled and painted, the 150s are neither, just the guns.
Interested?

Not currently because I need to conserve cash but get back to me on the other.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
-Napoleon Bonaparte
Unorthodoxy
Major
 
Posts: 4889
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: 1970 German Army list

Postby Dan the German Guy » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:32 am

Price per vehicle is 8,55 €, or about 10 USD. Shipping is roughly another 6 to 8 USD. So that would get you two for about 28 $. Including tax.
Dan the German Guy
Corporal
 
Posts: 70
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:36 am

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