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1970 German Army list

1970 German Army list

Postby Unorthodoxy » Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:16 am

So, I was wondering what you might think of this,

It is actually my current list, made more mobile in some ways. It lacks the Machine Gun unit, Air Support and Scouts.

In return, it effectively gains a Pak40 (old list had 6, this one has 7 because the HQ is one). This list loads all the PaK40;s onto a mobile chassis and protected from small arms fire completely by Front Armor 2.

In addition it effectively gives me me a second 10.5 gun unit that can also move easily, plus doubles the direst fire breakthrough shots when standing still or on defense. It mitigates the penalties for direct firing on the move, which is a pretty nice replacement for Airpower that may or may not come in.

This new list replaces the Nebelwerfer with a MUCH larger and better protected Armored Panzerwerfer unit. The net result of that is my save improves against shots against me there as well (and gives me more teams to lose if need be) and...again...I am now able to move when I need to. The AA Machine guns are an added bonus. A Quadruple template is fun.

Overall this feels... FEELS...Like a powerful upgrade to the older list...but...

It does make it somewhat more vulnerable to tank shots (what used to be a 3+ or 5+ save against even the biggest big shells becomes a worse/no save against AT 8 or better, AT 9 at long range). So this army will need to make good use of ambush (when it's allowed), will need to be more patient before it brings its guns to bear against tank armies and will have to be played a little more sneaky than just lining up and letting loose. But the added mobility is the attraction. As an attacker it can boldly strike out and attempt the round 3 victories or at least dictate to the enemy where they must go to win, creating fertile killing fields for the artillery.

Rommel would be proud. Beute is generally a word for plundering (or the loot or plunder itself). StuG means dogged or relentless. So Beute StuG could mean a "Relentless plunderer" more or less.

Thoughts?


Beute StuG Batterie HQ:
1 x 7.5cm (Sf) 39H

Beute StuG Platoon:
3 x 7.5cm (Sf) 39H

Beute StuG Platoon:
3 x 7.5cm (Sf) 39H

Beute StuH Platoon:
4 x 10.5cm (Sf) 39H

Heavy Panzerspäh Platoon
4 Sd Kfz 231 (8-rad)

21. Panzergrenadier Platoon
1 Cmd Panzerfaust SMG team
6 MG team
3 3-ton truck

21. Motorised Artillery Battery
1 Cmd SMG team
1 Kfz 15 field car
1 Staff team
1 Kfz 68 radio truck
4 s10cm K18 gun
4 3-ton truck
2 Observer Rifle team
2 Kubelwagen

Armoured Rocket Launcher Battery
1 Kfz 15 field car
1 Cmd SMG team
2 Kubelwagen
2 Observer Rifle team
6 Panzerwerfer 42 (5+ crew - counts double)
1 7.5cm PaK40 gun
1 Sd Kfz 11

Luftwaffe Anti-aircraft Assault Platoon
1 Cmd SMG team
2 Luftwaffe 8.8cm FlaK36 gun (8 crew)
2 Sd Kfz 7
Last edited by Unorthodoxy on Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
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Re: 1970 German Army list

Postby DylanGould » Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:30 pm

Looks like the list covers most of the bases; the main areas that it will have trouble with are dug-in Vets on the defense, tank hordes, and meeting engagements with a timeline.

Vets on D will hurt because of an attacking list with no Recon, but I'm not sure what I would drop to add some scouts without compromising the synergy of the list. One of the small infantry platoons would probably be number one on the cut list.

Tank hordes will take a beating, but your dependence on Stormtrooper moves to protect the tracks will hurt on poor dice, and the infantry platoons are pretty small for a late-war environment.

For the timeline issue, where you have to kill stuff quick, only one staff team means only one set of repeat bombardments (though a platoon of breakthrough guns will help with that). The biggest kicker here is rate of fire; I am a little jealous of breakthrough guns with RoF 2, but to keep them survivable, you need to keep them moving, and the impact of that on your RoF will hurt.

However, it does look like a fun-to-play list, which I think overrides the negatives. Proxy it up and take it for a test run! ...Just not against a Soviet tank horde.
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Re: 1970 German Army list

Postby Dan the German Guy » Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:56 am

I agree with Dylan in most aspects here.
Technically, it's a StuG battery list with Grenadier support, not a pure-bred Grenadier list any more, which turns it from a Mechanized into a fully Armored list and thus might place you on the attack a little more often... but other than that, I see a fine, fun-to-play combined arms list that will bring hurt on an open field, though less so in dense terrain.

Running my new tank company against this list would be hard... you do tend to get an awful lot of AP shots, and the 4 breakthrough StuHs are a nice addition, firepower-wise, that will plow infantry asunder. We'd probably end up trading tread for tread, and you have the numbers there... but I'd be way outgunned in the artillery department. How did you cram all those tubes in one list? Is it a Trained list?

The point where I differ from Dylan is what unit I'd swap out for some Recon, and that would be the 88s. All right, yes, they are powerful all-round weapons and can hold an objective fairly securely, but they don't really mix in well with your overall mobility theme. If I had to drop one unit for Recon and some other goodies, I'd drop them and rely on my infantry and 105s in a direct-fire role to hold ground. Most people tend to think of field artillery only in a bombardment role, but they can stop a tank over open sights well enough in a pinch.

Allow me one last remark here: StuG is the abbreviation for "SturmGeschuetz", literally "Assault Gun". The German word for "stubborn" you're looking for is "stur". Small difference, admittedly. Beute StuG refers to a captured or looted assault gun. For a funny historical reference, look up "Rommelschnaps", which was Beute whiskey captured in North Africa from the Brits.

Stray thought: if a Nebelwerfer werfs Nebels, what does a Panzerwerfer do?
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Re: 1970 German Army list

Postby Unorthodoxy » Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:15 pm

ha! that quip at the end was pretty funny.

So yeah I could see subbingthe 88's. I think I'm so familiar and comfortable with their use that i never considered it optional in any list. But I suppose this list could be an exception.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
-Napoleon Bonaparte
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Re: 1970 German Army list

Postby Dan the German Guy » Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:45 am

As quips go, I have another one for you, one that validates, in retrospect, your musing about the StuG and the relentlessness:

"Who put the 'Stur' in the 'Sturmgeschuetz'?!"
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Re: 1970 German Army list

Postby Unorthodoxy » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:44 pm

Okay. I edit'd the original post. I now have a Heavy pasnzerspah Platoon. I chose it over a second PanzerGrenadier platoon.

The 8-Rad can take any small arms fire, so the nice thing is it can help against dug in vets because they just cant hurt it with anything short of a true anti-tank type weapon and that drastically reduces the NUMBER of saves I'd have to make and the ease with which i would make them. It's Armor 2 is pretty cool as armored cars go. Once the dug in dudes are revealed, the bombardments can begin.

Added bonus: they act as TWO separate reconnaisance platoons so it gives me twice the targets to do my magic on, though it will likely only be one at a time.

One random thought that went through my head as i was nosing around: a Porsche Tiger is pretty ridonculous. Set it in cover and never move it. Just use it as a fire magnet to spare other units some fire. Slowly slowly whittle the enemy heavy tanks with it. I mean you'd have to give up a lot to get it but... It certainly would be a crap shoot to try and down it even with the most powerful anti-tank guns.

I could drop the Pangergrenadiers and the 88's. and REACH to try and get a Tiger in there. What do you think of that?
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
-Napoleon Bonaparte
Unorthodoxy
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Re: 1970 German Army list

Postby Dan the German Guy » Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:01 am

Honestly? My first thought after reading your modified list was: "Screw that, he can keep that list. I don't want to play against it. Attack or defend, I'd get hammered either way. No fun."
I'm a fun player. This is a tournament list. I'd take one look at your setup and be like: "Pass. Next one."

Then reason set in and got me thinking. It's a tough list all right - but it also has serious drawbacks that might backfire. It has no middle ground. Everything is heavy firepower and AP shots - no sustainability. You're counting on one thing - and one thing only - to carry the game. It's reenacting the first World War, British style. "The only thing better than guns is more guns."

The way I'd go about it is to kill your recon dead first. It's true small arms fire from the front won't hurt them - but anything bigger will, including mortars and infantry guns. Then I'd put snipers and bombardments on your observers and kill them next, or maybe in the same round. You'd maybe get one round of improved bombardment out of that build, and if the dice don't favour you then and there, that was your shot.
After that, that list breaks apart into vulnerable components unable to mutually support each other.

If I'm attacking, you don't need recon. You'll see me anyway.

As for the Porsche King Tiger, interesting thought here. It puts a horseshoe in your boxing glove. As it so happens, I'm experimenting along the same lines right now - putting a three-tank Schwere Panzer Platoon of Tigers into my Volksgrenadier build instead of StuGs and Sturmpanzers - basically because my brother gave me a box of Tigers for Christmas. And because everybody is going tank-crazy since the new Russians came out...
It's a psychological thing. These monsters put the Tiger terror into your opponent and he tends to get tunnel vision. But unless you want your King Tiger to be nothing more than a well-armored anti-tank gun or a mobile machine-gun bunker, you'll have to think beyond bullet magnet. What's more, an Armored list places you on the attack, period, so you definitely need to thing beyond bullet magnet. Otherwise, once your opponent gets over the dick measuring, he will soak up your sporadic cannon shots and flank your extremely expensive showpiece - or simply ignore it and play for objectives.

You can use it to snipe high-value targets or especially tough targets like Company Commanders, bunkers or other heavy tanks. But you're also incurring a strategic vulnerability that will affect your game. You need to task assets to protect that monster or you'll be out a lot of points if your opponents gets a few good shots at your side armour - even if he just bails the beast, unless the dice favour you, that's 20 percent of your points doing nothing for a full turn at least.
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Re: 1970 German Army list

Postby Dan the German Guy » Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:52 pm

Case in point:

the Peiper guy in this AAR pretty much owned his Russian opponent, but he had THREE King Tigers, and both the dice and the terrain favored him.

http://www.breakthroughassault.co.uk/20 ... vkovy.html

His opponent tried to do exactly what I predicted: he tried to flank the KTs and go for the objectives and support units. Had he had something more powerful than Matildas and Stuarts, he would have succeeded or at least forced a very different game.
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Re: 1970 German Army list

Postby Unorthodoxy » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:22 pm

Wow. Thanks for that excellent perspective on it AND the time it took to provide it! I love talking tactics.

Enemy tank Brigades can gobble up the armor on my stuff, should they be attacking and willing to be aggressive. Players in my area play VERY aggressively with tanks. So there is a definite achilles heel to this list. it is strong against tanks offensively and weak defensively, relying on the expedient of StormTrooping to give me an ability to evade the worst of it, which as Dylan points out, limits my shots as well.

I think EVERYONES first thought is to kill Recon first. those bastards are giving your position away! excellent use of terrain is going to matter a pretty fair amount. in fact the entire list feels quite reliant on terrain to me. A Fair and balanced board is all I require but hey, you don't always get that. That's war for ya'. But my thought is that it could take a LOT of the enemy's firepower to hit a long range, concealed, gone to ground vet that's dug in. =) And thats what the spotters are... Obviously it can be done but you REALLY have to commit to it sometimes and that spares a LOT of bigger and more powerful units. Company command can spot as well when it comes to it and the Armored Rocket Launcher battery is enormous and probably can spot anywhere it needs to. the 105's are of course a little more susceptible but have two spotters. So I think that attention paid to spotters doesn't necessarily help me, but it may not hurt me actually help the rest of the army do its thing. i dunno. thats something to playtest. Maybe have someone actually do it and see how the strategy works when bullets are flying and terrain is messing things up.

The Porsche can be flanked EVENTUALLY. However, it only has a very select number of things its actually responsible for killing and so if it can do THAT before it dies or at least do ENOUGH, I think it could be valuable. OTHER units can do work on softer targets, so it's the badass Soviet type tanks that are the fun issue I might need help on.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
-Napoleon Bonaparte
Unorthodoxy
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Re: 1970 German Army list

Postby Unorthodoxy » Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:27 am

Ugh, bad news today. I have been waiting for six weeks for the tanks to make this force, and have been informed that it is out of stock at BATTLE FRONT. In other words, it has to (eventually) be put on their manufacturing cue, which means it could be a year or more before they might be available, or it might be six months. Either way, it's not happening.

So I will have to shelf this army for a while. I got a refund and got a couple things I've been meaning to get for other games. Real bummer but im not that patient.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
-Napoleon Bonaparte
Unorthodoxy
Major
 
Posts: 4889
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:53 pm

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